Despite their increased political influence, indigenous peoples in Latin America have made little economic and social progress in the last decade, and continue to suffer from higher poverty, lower education, and a greater incidence of disease and discrimination than other groups, says a new World Bank study titled Indigenous Peoples, Poverty and Human Development in Latin America: 1994-2004. The study considers how social conditions have evolved in the five Latin American countries with the largest indigenous populations (Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala, Mexico, and Peru) during the last decade, proclaimed in 1994 by the United Nations as the International Decade of the Worlds Indigenous Peoples.
William Blomfield:
How important do you think that effective indigenous political participation and, where applicable, autonomy and self-government, to tackling the problems of poverty and underdevelopment?
Gillette Hall:
This is a very interesting question. I think the key word in your question is "effective." Our study shows that while indigenous political participation certainly increased over the decade 1994 to 2004, we saw less in terms of measurable outcomes in poverty reduction and improvement in other socioeconomic indicators.
Why this is happening we are not sure, but we think it has to do with either the fact that policies have changed and not enough time has passed to see the full impact of those policies, or policies have not changed sufficiently, or the political power that indigenous people have sustained, they have not yet been able use to their greatest advantage. Autonomy or self-government is also a very interesting and sensitive issue in the region. We do see some examples in the world where indigenous groups have used autonomy and perhaps not self-government, but parallel forms of governance, to improve their economic status in a country, and I'm thinking here of the Lapps in Scandinavian countries. But I don't think we have sufficient evidence from around the world as to how this would work to confidently discuss whether this is the road forward.
Randall Wood:
Question: Lack of perceived economic gains in Latin America, particularly among the indigenous population, as your report has made clear, is leading to a growing disatisfaction with the neo-liberal economic model and increased demands for a redistribution of national wealth through increased taxes or even nationalization.
Your agenda for action includes education, health, and training components, and recommends improved accountability in the delivery of social services for indigenous peoples. The accountability component is entirely the responsibility of the Andean countries' national governments. But does your research suggest ways in which the donor- and international NGO community can make a positive contribution to reducing the social tensions that result from the widening poverty gap between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples? Or do the authors feel this issue is best addressed from within, at the local level?
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
First, we didn't say there were no gains during the decade, and there are some clear positive outcomes, especially for some social indicators. However, there is a gap in the poverty rate between indigenous and non indigenous peoples that could very well lead to social tension. Therefore, it's important that the international community not only focus on our traditional projects that cover education, health, social protection, as recommended in the report, but also that we focus on the accountability component in our projects. That is to say, accountability, which is primarily a local or national responsibility, can also be built into the delivery of social services by donors. Speaking for the World Bank, we could focus on outcomes rather than inputs, and this will help us improve the outcomes in our projects and, hopefully, would lead to economic gains and reduce the poverty gap between indigenous and non-indigenous people in the long-run.
Hasnat Ahmad:
hi Gillete & Harry, Interesting topic of your title has prompted me to ask a question from my perspective i.e. as to how you feel the indigenous wisdom / skills can help in eradicating poverty. Should the poverty alleviation packages (over loaded with modern technological interventions) consider the indigenous wisdom as an integralpart of the cultural approach to tackle poverty issues?
Gillette Hall:
I love this question because this is something that I personally have spent a lot of time thinking about. I'm not fully confident of the answer here, but I do believe that the way we are approaching the process of development today could benefit greatly from what indigenous people know about stewardship of the land, ecological ways of approaching use of the world's resources. Certainly the problems that we see today with massive development--pollution, to name one example--perhaps suggests that if we were able to draw more upon what indigenous people know or their alternative ways of thinking and approaching production of goods drawing on the world's resources, we would have much to gain.
Specifically in terms of eradicating their poverty, I think that's less clear. I think the contribution that indigenous people have to make is more with regard to how we can improve the way we, as the world, are going about the process of development.
Andy Albertson:
In a few of these countries, the idea of decentralization--political, administrative, and fiscal--has been hailed as a way to empower rural indigenous groups. While the response has been mainly positive from these groups, I worry that the systems might be a form of institutionalizing the out-ness of outgroups. For instance, in Guatemala, the system of Consejos might be viewed as a "seperate but equal" space (to use an American analogy) for dialogue about public policy just as much as a tool for giving greater leverage to the voices and values of indigenous and other traditionally excluded groups. What is your view? On the whole, have decentralizing reforms given more voice to indigenous groups, or instead acted mainly to decrease the pressure on elites toward reforms of the central political process?
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
First in general, I would agree that decentralization has given more voice to indigenous groups and increased their awareness, voice, and allowed them to put pressure on the authorities. However, specific cases differ, and it depends on the level of centralization we are talking about. In many countries, decentralization has gone from the national government to state governments, and local control is still a long way off.
In these cases, there is a danger, at least in the short run, of generating less pressure on the elites by giving a certain level of decentralization while not giving full authority. Education is one example where, in some countries, decentralization has not yet reached the school level, and in some cases there are problems of lack of capacity at the school and community level, which are not providing the right outcome; whereas at the same time other more capable groups and communities have been able to take advantage of the decentralization and made improvements.
So, it's a question of what level of decentralization we are talking about, and whether there are mechanisms for increasing the capacity of communities to put pressure on authorities to improve outcomes. A suggestion may be to continue the decentralization process to the local level.
Carlos Tarazona:
Thanks for the opportunity to make some queries about the report. I fully agree with the specific recommendations listed in the executive summary. However, I would like to know the reporting team views about the widespread of racism (especially against the "first nation" people) in Latin America and its impact on indigenous people in terms of marginalization and poverty. Thank you.
Gillette Hall:
Well, our report does not present conclusive evidence about discrimination. We use econometric techniques which suggest evidence of discrimination particularly in the labor market, meaning that an individual, an indigenous individual with the same skills, age, education, as a nonindigenous person, is earning significantly less in the labor market--and the cause of that may, and I underline "may" -- be discrimination.
The first thing needed, I believe, is specific tests generating evidence of overt discrimination in the region if we are going to talk about this with any confidence and talk about recommendations resulting from the evidence. When you think of what one might do in the face of discrimination that is causing poverty, there are, of course, some options. One is affirmative action. There is not conclusive agreement on the effectiveness of these policies. Some people are very much for them; others very much against. One could see this in the history of the United States.
Second, one can think of public awareness campaigns; and third, multicultural curricula, which means changing the way the next generation thinks about their brothers and sisters and fellow country men and women.
Paola Espinosa:
Implementing functional bilingual and multicultural education programs sounds easy, but is even more vulnerable to poor quality than other educational programs if teachers are not properly trained and given the right incentives. Mexicos bilingual education system maintains respect for linguistic minority rights on paper, but in practice few people value indigenous cultures, even among indigenous people themselves. This, and the poor quality of teacher training programs means that indigenous languages are rarely used for teaching. In light of this, should the emphasis not be on generating pride in Latin Americas indigenous heritage - among indigenous people and the rest - and on addressing the broader causes of poor quality in education, first and foremost the low quality of teachers?
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
The point that bilingual education programs are difficult to implement is correct. This is evident not only in Latin America but in many countries in the world, and the main problem is inadequately trained teachers and methodologies.
Also, a problem we encounter in Latin American programs is the mismatch between teachers and the community in which they are sent to teach. There are many cases where teachers who don't speak the indigenous language are teaching the class. There are cases where they speak the wrong indigenous language or a different language from the class. There are cases where children are being taught indigenous languages when they don't speak them themselves.
Bilingual education works best when the children enter school speaking the mother tongue, and they use the mother tongue for instruction in the early years, and gradually transition to the language of wider communication in the country over four or five years. But the teachers need to be trained in the proper methods for bilingual programs, and they need to know the mother tongue the children speak.
Another problem that is raised is on the demand for mother-tongue literacy. In many communities, parents don't want the children to learn the indigenous language in school because they think it's going to limit their opportunities. But once they see that bilingual programs produce greater capacity in the language of wider communication, demand for such programs increase. So, there is a need to increase awareness of the benefits of bilingual education, and to make sure that the programs are high quality
Graciela Gonzalez:
1. I Would like to know which are the confidence levels of the presented data for Mexican indigenous peoples. 2. Can you provide the methodology used to infere indigenous peoples from the ENIGH (INEGI, Mexico).
Gillette Hall:
Thank you for your question. The only way we were able to include Mexico in this study, which was important because Mexico has in absolute numbers the largest indigenous population of any country in the region, was to combine Mexico's census data with its household survey data. The reason we had to do that is because Mexico's household survey, unlike any other household survey in the region, does not include questions identifying whether the individual is indigenous or not. They simply don't ask the question. Therefore, there is no way of using the survey to identify the indigenous population and analyze their characteristics.
What we did, put in very simple terms, was to use the census data which does identify indigenous people, and select those municipalities in Mexico that have 80 percent or more indigenous people living in the region. We then took the household survey data and selected only those municipalities which had, based on the census data, an overwhelming indigenous population--that is, 80 percent or more--and we then compared those municipalities with the rest of the country to assess the characteristics of indigenous municipalities with nonindigenous municipalities.
We then conducted rigorous tests of this methodology which showed it to be robust. We would be glad to provide you with more detail on this methodology if you would like it by email.
Juan Reyes:
Most of the investment projects promoted by governments in Latin America, specially in the mining and agricultural areas, do not allow indigenous people to participate in their implementation or to manage specific funds to promote development among them. Why the World Bank among others multilateral organizations, do not promove a more substantial participation of theses people. I would like your coments on these.
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
There are many World Bank projects, in Latin America specifically, where indigenous people participate not only in the implementation of the project but also in its design. In education, we have projects where indigenous people are participating in school improvement-type funds and school management-type arrangements, where they are invited to help improve the physical environment of the school. In other cases, they actually help design and implement specific projects to improve quality. And beyond these components of traditional Bank projects, the Bank also has a specific fund for indigenous people. It's a small grant facility, but nevertheless there is a specific fund for indigenous people's development. And the Bank has a policy that promotes indigenous peoples development and specifically their participation in the whole development process, including the project cycle.
Lars Harrysson:
In what ways do the World Bank stand on a three pillar pension system model provide a basis for a acceptable benefit coverage among indigenous populations?
Gillette Hall:
The interesting issue when talking about pensions and indigenous people is that across all five countries we studied, without exception, we found significantly lower coverage of formal pensions amongst the indigenous. The main reason for this is the fact that indigenous peoples participate to a much lesser degree in the formal employment sector, which is where these benefits are offered. This may have to do with geographical location, although more and more indigenous people are living in the cities, so this cannot be a full explanation.
When talking about resolving this issue, I think indigenous peoples are pretty much in the same boat as those in the informal sector, which is comprised largely of the poor, whether indigenous or not. The World Bank is working actively with many countries, Mexico being one that has recently taken the lead in this, in figuring out how you address the facts of minimal to no coverage of old-age security systems among the informal sector.
MAJAMBERE Tharcisse:
- Y-at-il collération entre population autochtone et minorité ethnique? -Pourquoi la question des populations autochtones n'est pas prise en compte dans les politiques des bailleurs de fonds( la Banque Mondiale) comme le Genre, l'environnment et la Bonne gouvernance ?
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
In fact, the World Bank was the first international organization to have a specific policy for indigenous peoples, and just last week, during the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, the World Bank presented its new policy on indigenous peoples, which actually goes further to promote participation of indigenous peoples' development. And this policy was the result of years of discussions and consultations with indigenous peoples, representatives, NGOs, governments, and other donors.
So, it's a fact that the Bank does have a policy that is as important as our other policies mentioned in the question.
MAJAMBERE Tharcisse:
-Comme Citoyen américain et Grand artisan de la réduction de la pauvreté au sein de la Banque Mondiale, que politique faut-il menée en direction des populations autochnones latino- américaines pour améliorer leur sort?
- En Afrique n' ya-t-il pas de population auochnone? Pourquoi vous en parlez pas?
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
First, we recommend more and better education to improve socioeconomic conditions of indigenous peoples, meaning more years of completed schooling, and at the same time better quality education, given the differences not only in years of schooling but also in the quality of that education.
Second, we recommend a head start for indigenous peoples, meaning early intervention programs such early childhood education and nutrition, and maternal health programs.
Third, we recommend greater accountability in the delivery of social services to indigenous peoples, meaning giving greater voice to indigenous people and communities, and that they participate in their education, health, and other social services.
And finally, given the difficulty in Latin America of constructing a dependable time series for indigenous peoples socioeconomic indicators, we recommend consistent and multiple questions in household surveys that would help researchers identify indigenous peoples, particularly self-identification and language questions.
The implications of our research were that the U.N.-declared Decade for Indigenous Peoples from 1994 to 2004 resulted in improvements in some social indicators for indigenous people in Latin America, but few gains in terms of reducing the gap in poverty rates between indigenous and nonindigenous people.
But our study of five Latin American countries is the only one we know of that tried to look at the evolution of social trends during the decade. We haven't seen a similar study for other regions in the world, and during the United Nations Forum on Indigenous Issues which concluded last week, we did not hear of any presentations trying to evaluate or assess the decade.
And one of the problems in the other regions is that household surveys and census instruments do not typically identify indigenous peoples. It would be difficult to have a regional study in other parts of the world.
So, the first implication for our study in other regions is to look at existing data resources and find ways to improve the instruments that would help identify indigenous peoples in those countries, and hopefully similar studies can be undertaken.
Tony Sebiani S:
Estimados Gillette Hall y Harry A Patrinos, Para reducir la pobreza y mejorar el Desarrollo Humano de nuestros pueblos indígenas, me parece que los puntos señalados por su estudio son medulares para resolver el problema, principalmente la educación, salud y la necesidad de garantizar la entrega de servicios sociales. Sin embargo, lo difícil es hacer realidad estas ideas, la meta de erradicar la pobreza o reducirla y mejorar la calidad de vida de nuestros indígenas se ha quedado durante muchos años en el papel y las ideas. La falta de voluntad política es la culpable de que los indígenas Latinoamericanos en lugar de mejorar, empeoran su condición social. La falta de compromiso y solidaridad de los Gobiernos Latinoamericanos ha degenerado en la no permeabilidad de recursos y servicios básicos a nuestros indígenas, con el consecuente abandono y explotación en que hoy en día están inmersos. El compromiso de los gobiernos por realizar transferencias y gasto público focalizado a los puntos anotados en el estudio del Banco Mundial (salud, educación y servicios), son sin duda la única oportunidad que tienen los indígenas de sobrevivir. Es fundamental, que antes de proceder a capacitarlos gocen de alimentación y salud básica, una ves logrado esto proceder a mejorar su educación y capacidad productiva, dinamizando un cambio endógeno con rasgos externos pero sin afectar su idiosincrasia, es decir debemos enseñarles a ser productivos y diversificar su producción, sin que dejen de ser indígenas ya que hay que rescatar su herencia histórica. El proceso de educación que debe implementarse en estas comunidades deberá ser indigenizado, en ese sentido deberá capacitarse profesores y empresarios indígenas que se encarguen de difundir sus conocimientos en sus pueblos natales. Los Gobiernos deberán comprometerse a mejorar la infraestructura y carreteras para lograr comunicar estos pueblos con el resto de la sociedad y generar mecanismos que les permitan comercializar sus productos sin que sean explotados por intermediarios, de forma que mejoren sus ingresos y riqueza a lo interno de sus comunidades. A partir de lo anterior, me gustaría realizar las siguientes preguntas: ¿cómo hacer conciencia a los Gobiernos Latinoamericanos, que es importante generar desarrollo y bienestar social en los pueblos indígenas?, ¿Cómo capacitar indígenas para difundir conocimientos en sus comunidades, sin que estos deserten atraídos por el sueño de vivir en sociedades del centro donde hay mayor desarrollo y oportunidades personales?, ¿Cómo hacer para que los pocos indígenas que han logrado empoderarse, no olviden sus raíces y sean solidarios con el sufrimiento y explotación que viven sus pueblos?, ¿Cómo garantizar que la poca ayuda que los Gobiernos envían a estas comunidades no sean desviados por personas inescrupulosas y nunca lleguen a su destino?, y finalmente ¿Cómo comprometer a los Gobiernos para diseñar Políticas Económicas que mejoren su condición económico-social-ambiental sin destruir su herencia cultural? De todo lo anterior la base para resolver el problema, radica en el compromiso y la solidaridad con nuestros hermanos indígenas. Atentamente, Tony Sebiani S (Costa Rica)
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
Para hacer conciencia a los gobiernos latinoamericanos, recomendaríamos establecer la relación entre el desarrollo y bienestar social de los pueblos indígenas a los Objetivos de desarrollo del milenio a los cuales esos mismos gobiernos ya se han comprometido. Alcanzar los objetivos requiere que todos los estamentos de la sociedad progresen y, como los pueblos indígenas están evolucionando más lentamente que otros en este respecto, ésta sería una de las áreas más indicadas.
Respecto a sus dos siguientes preguntas, creemos que la educación continuada es aún importante, especialmente si toma en cuenta las cuestiones e idiomas indígenas. Es necesario ejecutar adecuadamente los programas educacionales.
En cuanto a garantizar que las ayudas lleguen a su destino, el estudio de México destaca el éxito de programas que están bien dirigidos, son directos y transparentes. Por ejemplo, el programa Oportunidades, un programa de transferencias monetarias condicionales, ha demostrado beneficiar a los pueblos indígenas, reduciendo la pobreza e incrementando la educación y los indicadores de salud. Hay evidencia de que este programa ha hecho un buen uso de los fondos públicos.
Luis Obregon:
¿Conocen estrategias (modelos) para el desarrollo de pueblos indigenas, que integren la participacion comunitaria orientada por emprendedores locales capacitados con nuevas reglas de juego y metodologia de campo que neutralice las conviciones del subdesarrollo, a fin de generar capitalización local? El Programa Berum (ver Google)ha creado y ejecutado uno para los indigenas de los Andes y Amazonia del centro del Perú, a partir de maestros rurales.
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
Ésta es un área importante sobre la que se ha discutido mucho, actualmente estamos llevando a cabo un estudio acerca de las oportunidades económicas para los pueblos indígenas a través de iniciativas empresariales.
Angel Arteaga Ayabar:
Hola amigos quería preguntarles referente a por que en los paises de america latina con población indigena que habita en territorios extensos no se desarrollan programas en favor de estos seres humanos, que les ayuden mas que todo a conservar su territorio y evitar que por dar pase a la tala indiscriminada de los bosques, en nuestros paises latinos hasta se concesiona el terreno con comunidades indigenas enteras, y no se respetan sus derechos a vivir en el lugar que los vió nacer. Angel Arteaga Ucayali -Perú
Gillette Hall:
Sí, hay programas que alcanza a las poblaciones indígenas y les reportan beneficios importantes, como Oportunidades en México. Sin lugar a dudas, estos programas no reciben los recursos suficientes y todavía no se aplican en la mayor parte de los países. Esperamos que nuestro trabajo impulse más atención y recursos para los programas que favorecen a los pueblos indígenas.
Ricardo Martínez:
¿Es la omisión de Venezuela, donde viven catorce (14) etnias, de las cuales Seis (6) son consideradas como tales por la ONU con lenguaje, historia y cultura claramente definida, una omisión involuntaria o responde a determinada corriente ideológica?
Gillette Hall:
Hemos escogido para este estudio los cinco países con las mayores poblaciones indígenas, sea por el porcentaje que representan de la población total o por su número absoluto. Esperamos que nuestro próximo estudio incluya a más de los países de la región que tiene, como usted bien indica, poblaciones indígenas aunque no constituyan una gran proporción de la población.
Luis Enrique Monterroso:
¿Los derechos economicos sociales y culturales, son excluyentes a los pueblos indigenas?
Gillette Hall:
Los derechos económicos, sociales y culturales de los pueblos indígenas están en su mayor parte reconocidos legalmente, es decir por las constituciones, pero de hecho estos derechos están menos establecidos bien sea por falta de precedente legal o por las acciones sobre el terreno. También los pueblos indígenas tienen menos acceso a las cortes para defender sus derechos. Por ejemplo, un editorial en México que surgió de este estudio notó que aunque en México, por ley, los indígenas tienen derecho a un traductor en las cortes, actualmente ninguna ofrece este servicio.
Catherine Y. Chang Carías:
I am really worried about the indigenous people in my country Honduras, because our government doesn´t have mecanisms to help them and they are discriminated ¿what is your opinion about honduran indigenous people?
Gillette Hall:
First, Honduras actually does have a rather innovative program for indigenous people. A couple of years ago, the Government of Honduras created a separate arm of its social fund which is called the FHIS, Fondo Hondureño de Inversión Social - the Honduras Social Investment Fund--and they created a separate pot of money which could be accessed only by indigenous people, and it's run under different rules than the mainstream FHIS program. It allows indigenous people, for example, collective use of the resources allocated to a community.
So, I share your concern about the indigenous people of Honduras, since we have a concern for indigenous people region wide, but Honduras does provide an interesting case of a very innovative program designed for indigenous people and transferring resources directly to those people. Certainly the program is likely not enough and more needs to be done.
Gema Velasco:
¿Por qué si los pueblos indígenas cada vez tienen más influencia política no se han apreciado cambios significativos en sus condiciones económicas? ¿Cuándo comenzaron a organizarse políticamente las comunidades indígenas y cuál cree que será la evolución futura de estas organizaciones?
Gillette Hall:
Nosotros no sabemos con certeza por qué los cambios en términos de influencia política no se han apreciado en cambios en las condiciones económicas, pero podemos sugerir varios factores que incluyen a)la necesidad de que pase un poco más de tiempo, b)que aunque han tenido éxito en cambiar algunas políticas en forma escrita, éstas son aplicadas de modo irregular, y c) quizá el poder político que han alcanzado no está siendo utilizado en su propio provecho de un modo óptimo.
Carolina Canosa:
1. En cuanto a la recolección de los datos de la población indígena: ¿que sugieren ustedes para identificar los diferentes grupos existentes de indígenas y sus características teniendo en cuenta que hay un porcentaje relevante de ésta población de la que ni siquiera los gobiernos saben de su existencia? ¿Que sugieren para éstos casos? 2. Se ha sabido el caso de grupos indígenas en la selva amazónica brasileña, peruana y colombiana que están completamente aislados de la civilización (si se puede llamar así). ¿Creen ustedes que estos grupos deberían adherirse a la civilización o deberían seguir en su medio natural?
Gillette Hall:
Nosotros recomendamos la autoidentificación como la mejor forma de identificar a individuos o pueblos indígenas. Su segunda pregunta es excelente: creemos que es posible y se debe respetar el derecho de cada persona a escoger su modo de vida y, cuando menos, trabajar para rebajar el impacto negativo que puede tener el contacto de grupos aislados con la civilización.
Arturo González:
World Economic Institutions, including World Bank, have been supporting economic and trade liberalization policies as new development motors for the economies in developing nations. Reports from WB, GATT/OMC, NAFTA, UNCTAD, ILO, and others, show few or very modest results in terms of economic and social benefits in these societies. This new report on indigenoues peoples confirms the trend of poor welfare gains, persistance of inequalities and strong migrations. ¿It is about time to change the economic model that does not reachs the tragedy of so many poors? Congratulations for the outcome. Thank you for your kind attention
Harry Anthony Patrinos:
It's true that the last decade saw few gains for indigenous people, at least in Latin America, which we studied extensively. In order to see progress, the development community and governments need to acknowledge in their quest for reaching the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), in countries where indigenous peoples are a sizable segment of the population, this group can't be ignored. Similarly, the decade for indigenous peoples which ended in December 2004 did not have clear empirical goals to measure success. And now the international community is recognizing a second indigenous decade, which would end in 2015, the same year these countries are expected to meet the MDGs.
Therefore, indigenous peoples need to recognize the advantage of linking their goals to the MDGs, which would reinforce governments and donors' attention to indigenous peoples, and force the strategies to become more inclusive, and therefore increase the chances of success, at the same time involving indigenous peoples. So, both aims could be accomplished with the same instrument.
